93,

I am not sure how Yoga and Magick WOULDN'T touch upon emotional issues, especially Magick. If there is no emotion involved, including control thereof in Yoga & Magick, then I would say you are performing empty exercises.

It may not 'cure' emotional problems but its a very subtle problem. One might say that going through emotional trauma and conquering it is part of the path. One might say that those who succumb to neurosis are simply those who did not prevail, like the many species we do not see today because they failed to win in the survival of the fittest. Further, if yoga & magick do not bring both control and unseen emotional heights (and nadirs), it seems quite useless.

Further, Herr Nietzsche once said something like 'every thought contains its quanta of emotion' and so really you cannot escape these feelings, however subtle they may be.

Regardie was most likely speaking from the perspective of a psychotherapist. He told magicians to get psychotherapy during their practice and he was obviously biased to it. Being schooled in psychology, I can personally say... There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. It seems to belie Regardie's prejudices & beliefs more than any kind of objective advice.

IAO131

"It may not 'cure' emotional problems but its a very subtle problem."

Yes -- I love your invocation of Nietzsche to make that point. The work of magick and yoga involves dealing with emotions and can, I think, on some levels provide strength and support.

The danger, however, is thinking that magick and yoga are good replacements for professional help. They're not.

The problem is, as always, the ego and its persistent presence. Your ego can easily delude you into thinking that you're "helping" yourself when in fact all you're doing is wrapping yourself deeper and deeper in Selfhood. This is why introspection is frought with danger and why yoga (far more introspective than magick) is so tricky.

I'm not saying that psychology or psychiatry is perfect, but if you have a serious emotional problem, it would be ridiculous to think that you can make yourself all better with a bunch of "magic rituals." Crowley is living proof of it -- for all his brilliance, and all of his magical attainments, he was a messed up individual who probably would have benefitted from psychiatric help. I think that's all that Regardie was saying.

I was much more troubled by Regardie's assertion that those who don't believe in psychic powers must have some kind of "psychological shield" to protect them from accepting such an obvious "truth." It really made me question the man's credibility, since there's not a shred of evidence for psychic abilities...but maybe that is the subject for another thread. :)

93,

Alastor: I disagree about your assessment of Crowley. I do not think he would've "benefitted" from psychotherapy/psychiatry at all. Their notion of a healthy individual is not coterminous with his notion of a powerful Thelemite. In fact, they would most likely diagnose a good magician with mania among other things (hypergraphia, over-sensitization, etc. can all be helpful byproducts of magickal practice yet they are seen as 'disorders' by the medical community).

Izzy: In regard to emotion, I think that control is the most important facet in one's work. That being said, this notion can often lead one to becoming an emotional eunuch - that is, devoid of emotion like a rock (and some yogis). That, too, is undesirable. In this sense one must remember both that, "My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells," and "For Perfection abideth not in the Pinnacles, or in the Foundations, but in the ordered Harmony of one with all."

Feelings of strength, beauty, force, fire, fantasy, laughter, brilliance, exuberance, etc. are all very Thelemic but one must pass through the Dark Night of the Soul of depression (not necessarily once either but many times at different degrees), insanity, etc. to truly claim these attributes of strength, etc. The most important thing is to be Yourself; There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt... but who art thou? What depths and heights does your soul rise to and bring forth fruits in spontaneous exuberance? That is only for you to know in the end, and often labels like 'strength' etc can be a hindrance rather than a merit (although useful as temporary signposts).

IAO131

93,

Do you know what mania means? Have you seen it in patients? Are you aware of the degrees of this? It seems like you are having a knee-jerk reaction. I've studied DSM-IV, etc... and I never discouraged anyone from anything. I said I think you were wrong about Crowley being able to benefit from psychotherapy.

IAO131

Hi izzy

Er a little from colum A and a little from colum B maybe.
If Regardie was to give that kind of generalisation, I would say, that it may apply to some forms of magic and not to others. To some forms of Yoga and not to others also.

Yoga and magic are broad technologies, and have within them many things that can help a person heal emotional issue or learn to gain greater master of them etc
But for beginning student of either path, it seems a lucky dip almost, whether yoga/magic would be taught to them in a way/s that would let them deal with this kind of thing.
So I would say it depend on how you are taught or what books you read.

I have noticed that magic/yoga has directly been useful with emotional difficulties. The often result of living.
And magic/yoga to me is about living, and learning about living in many regard etc

In short, depending on the teacher, material, Regardie maybe be right in some case's and wrong in others.

The other point you make seems true in many ways, I have meet many practicing magicians who seemed to have some skill in astral travel, some interesting "psychic abilities" and ritualic skill, but seemed to me, fairly unskilled with there emotions in various obvious ways. Actually some also seemed emotionally "numb" or with little sensitivity to them. While they often talked of being a master of them, none the less this seemed to me unlikely.

Cheers izzy

93 Yogibear,

Welcome to the forums, and interesting comment. Balance is certainly necessarily, especially when making broad, generalizing statements.

Some people claim to be masters of their emotions, but they are simply castrated - that is, they have none. Its almost like praising a dentist for getting rid of the pain of a tooth by pulling it out... thats certainly a lot easier than having the knowledge & skill to retain the tooth and overcome the pain.

Jeffrey: They certainly have practices, as does Magick, but that doesn't mean they work. If you've ever seen someone with a panic attack, it seems like it could be controlled by mental force but it is an overwhelming physiological sensation. Perhaps one could, eventually, train oneself to lessen the effects but there are still times when one's mind cannot simply reverse the power of the body.

IAO131

I have quite recently had an interesting discussion about this with a friend. to my experience, it seems indeed possible to train yourself in magick and still retain emotional problems. I have "met" seemingly QUITE experienced practitioners online that seemed to confirm this, to say no more.

I would, however, make a distinction between what may be considered yogic methods and what may be considered magick methods.

christopher s. hyatt said that in his experience the eastern methods with their emphasis on body work are much more suitable to bring about change in personal behaviour or reaction patterns. and I guess this is what it boils down to: reaction patterns. see wilhelm reich.
the first 4 cicuits in the leary grid.

a point that my friend and me both thought to be a crucial factor was that a lot of the "issues" of magicians seem to be rooted in portions of the personality that the magician in question is quite fond of, so to speak.
if the "problem" is rationalized as a virtue, there will of course be little change in behaviour.
here a text like the book of the law and a strong and impressive person like crowley with his many quirks and issues seem to lend themselves rather unfortunately well to the projecting of ones flaws.
going for the drama. being a big mage. qouting the third chapter like there is no tomorrow. one can be a violent extremist quite easily with thelema, it seems. maybe not a flaw of the system (wich as I see it, by selfdefinition adresses those who SHALL realize their wills in the future - those in need of becoming who they are), certainly a lack of introspection by the individual.
I have recently heard of a guy who said that he, as a thelemite, thinks homosexuality to be against nature.
quite a feat of mental acrobatics, considering crowleys paris workings and his new york adventures, to name but a few.

since mind is always luring at least me towards rationalizing my feelings and emotional responses, the course of action would indeed seem to be to learn about personality disorders and mindmaps, psychology, in a word, as was indicated by a contributor above. to train onesself to see why one does take this or that position.
why do I feel I have to call for the army of ra hoor khuit to battle the forces of whatever?
why do I feel angered at this or at that?
why do I have to indentify with an abstract body of dogma (for such it becomes in the inclined mind)?

I have met people who are experts in kabbala but haven't got a clue about semantics, and accordingly constantly confuse their map not only for the only map but for the territory. I have only once met a person who could meaningfully relate kabbalistic concepts to psychology and semantics. to explain to me that it is a map, and has certain concepts about what we can say about reality in it. (to make that clear: I have little to no interest in kabbala)
the rest went on treating ain soph as if they have it installed in their backyard. or rather in their bed, because they sure acted as if I looked at their spouses in an indencent way when I pointed out some inconsistencies in their arguments.
I have also met people whose years of training in mental exercises did not keep them from being rather obviously neophobic to everything that did not fit their "canon" of magick and thelema.

in my personal experience actual body work counters the bodymind reaction patterns that are set into alert by mind territory breaches. there is a chapter in the book of lies that emphasizes this in no uncertain terms. ;)

in the language of magick one could say (or rather, I would say )that experienced magicians with big personality issues are those who retain and cherish parts of their personality. as I understand the game, the ego is what we set out to overcome. there seems to be a widespread misconception that this does not mean overcoming identifying with my likes and dislikes. so it MAY boil down to the misconception of "do what thou wilt" meaning, in effect, "do what your complexes compell ye to do."
if ones complexes go unnoticed or even rationalised as sound thought and action ("what the hell, that's the way I AM"), so issues remain.

"gods may be recognized by their cheerfulnes"
as gemistos plethon put it.
the inclined student may find verses to this effect in the book of the law also, if I remember correctly.

crowley himself said that whenever one states something as very important, one only confirms a personal limitation.

t

P.S. This is a dream I journaled about Israel and Aleister a zillion years ago. Humorously it kind of addresses that issue (of how IR saw AC.)

Israel's Portrait of Alistor and our Entwining "Tripod of Consciousness"

Last night I found myself face to face -- close up -- with this painting: a portrait of Crowley.

Not so much that it looked like he ever did; tough to explain.

It was truly amazingly done, it managed to convey a huge amount of emotion and information and depth. Done in thick paints like the days of old, it had real texture as well as visuals. Yet it was dominantly in these odd greens and angles that gave it this rather Saturn-like, weird feeling, a bit of cold, impersonal and unearthly feeling as one of the many overtones.

I turned to Israel (Regardie, who created it) and I said, "Israel, it's beautiful. You've captured so much of his energy it's like the portrait is alive. You always did have such a gift for empathic insight, and this is real art. And yet, I think the greens are partly your own interpretation of him; I would have used less of those, and a bit more deep blues."

And he admitted that was likely the case, and then he reached out for me and we became like long ribbons, or maybe snakes or strings, and we wound around each other like a candy cane all the way out to the ends. It felt so strange, it was amazing! It was like I could feel my (astral?) body just thinning out and wrapping around his in a vortex-like spiral. He was a tremendously warm soul, and he gave me this feeling of real "maturity" is the only word I can put to it; I relaxed into him with a mix of gratitude and sensuousness and decided it had been too long and I'd really missed him.

Later in the dream, after Israel and I had been winding around each other, always going upward, having a tremendously good time (strangely close; not really sexual, I mean we didn't have normal bodies, but so intensely intimate it defies words) Alistor showed up to take a look at the portrait and comment on it.

I had missed him and reached out to him, and he took my hand and somehow was connected to Israel as well when he did. He swirled in with us, and we contemplated the portrait as a "joined tripod unit of consciousness" for a bit.

Then Alistor pulled back so he was an individual and said "Yes, Israel, right about the blues. I see more of them in me than you do, but it's always been that way." And Israel and I directed our long swirled-entwined strings of bodies over closer to the portrait and looked at it again for awhile.

I decided that he is far more understanding of Crowley now than he had been when he was alive; or rather, that he now has fewer personal issues in the way of expressing his insight.

I woke up feeling like I had partly merged with Israel and was now not entirely the same person I had been before I went to sleep.

1994